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	<title>Comments on: STATE-SANCTIONED CHILD ABUSE</title>
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	<description>OPIATE OF THE ASSES</description>
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		<title>By: Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7833</link>
		<dc:creator>Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7833</guid>
		<description>Peggy - I completely agree and am fully aware of the social development concerns with any homeschooling issue . . . my (extended) family and I work together to make sure that all of the kids have activities, outside of school, with other children their age.  Unfortunately, while you were likely joking about the &quot;getting paid&quot; part, some of the teachers and administrators at her school were not!  

Megan - yes, regulation can be a crucial aspect to ensuring a home-schooled child receives a TRUE education.  Too often, homeschooling is used as an &quot;easy out&quot; for a lazy parent unwilling to wake up in time to ensure the child gets to school, or as a mechanism to more easily hide signs of abuse.  Essentially, the rules in Florida require either a test or the presentation of a work portfolio.  My daughter takes the test, as she takes online classes (through the state&#039;s more thorough online school district, and extra that I have to pay for) and interactive classes with her many instructors - family members and close friends of the family all participate depending on their expertise and/or interest. (One relative checks her math, and provides supplemental history lessons as he used to teach in those subjects; another teaches her botany as a supplement to her science lessons, etc.)
This was something we did as a &quot;family&quot;, but also because I took her out of a traditional setting to keep her from indoctrination, including any that I might pass on . . .  I have no interest in controlling everything she says or does and in that regard I KNOW I&#039;m in the minority where homeschooling parents are concerned, I fully agree with ED that the person desiring that kind of control over someone should be watched closely and preferably not be allowed to procreate. 

BRANDON AND J - both of you seem fairly well-read.  Have you ever checked out a book called &quot;The Edison Gene&quot; by Thom Harmann?  It fleshes out a pretty sound theory on the current evolution (psychological, philosophical, etc.)  of our own species - and how our current educational systems are playing a part ... ALSO - with regard to which is more fun &quot;religion or science?&quot;
I enjoyed Bible Stories while a child, but I also enjoyed Aesop&#039;s fables . . . neither compared to hanging out in the backyard with my dad doing &quot;Test MacGyver&#039;s science&quot; experiments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peggy &#8211; I completely agree and am fully aware of the social development concerns with any homeschooling issue . . . my (extended) family and I work together to make sure that all of the kids have activities, outside of school, with other children their age.  Unfortunately, while you were likely joking about the &#034;getting paid&#034; part, some of the teachers and administrators at her school were not!  </p>
<p>Megan &#8211; yes, regulation can be a crucial aspect to ensuring a home-schooled child receives a TRUE education.  Too often, homeschooling is used as an &#034;easy out&#034; for a lazy parent unwilling to wake up in time to ensure the child gets to school, or as a mechanism to more easily hide signs of abuse.  Essentially, the rules in Florida require either a test or the presentation of a work portfolio.  My daughter takes the test, as she takes online classes (through the state&#039;s more thorough online school district, and extra that I have to pay for) and interactive classes with her many instructors &#8211; family members and close friends of the family all participate depending on their expertise and/or interest. (One relative checks her math, and provides supplemental history lessons as he used to teach in those subjects; another teaches her botany as a supplement to her science lessons, etc.)<br />
This was something we did as a &#034;family&#034;, but also because I took her out of a traditional setting to keep her from indoctrination, including any that I might pass on . . .  I have no interest in controlling everything she says or does and in that regard I KNOW I&#039;m in the minority where homeschooling parents are concerned, I fully agree with ED that the person desiring that kind of control over someone should be watched closely and preferably not be allowed to procreate. </p>
<p>BRANDON AND J &#8211; both of you seem fairly well-read.  Have you ever checked out a book called &#034;The Edison Gene&#034; by Thom Harmann?  It fleshes out a pretty sound theory on the current evolution (psychological, philosophical, etc.)  of our own species &#8211; and how our current educational systems are playing a part &#8230; ALSO &#8211; with regard to which is more fun &#034;religion or science?&#034;<br />
I enjoyed Bible Stories while a child, but I also enjoyed Aesop&#039;s fables . . . neither compared to hanging out in the backyard with my dad doing &#034;Test MacGyver&#039;s science&#034; experiments.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan H</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7831</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7831</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Brendan and others who said that it is the ideology that seems to be the concern here.  If we really are concerned about educating students well, then I think home-schooling should continue to be an option.  Home-schooled kids tend to score higher than their public school peers on standardized tests and, in general, have the marks/scores to get into good colleges.  It is a great choice for students who are bored with conventional schooling or who have special needs that over-burdened schools can’t meet.  

However, regulation is important.  Pennsylvania (where I was educated, yes, by my mom, from K-12) has the strictest home-schooling laws in the country, requiring that the school districts review samples of students’ work each year, standardized tests and an evaluation of each pupil by a certified teacher.  Regulations such as these help to ensure that students are being taught what they need to learn.  They might not prevent against “indoctrination,” but again, parents influence their kids no matter where they go to school and many private schools teach Creationism, conservatism, etc. as well. 

While the movement was originally started by hippies who didn’t want their kids tainted by the establishment, it’s true that a large percentage of home-schooling families do so for religious reasons.  I don’t want to delve too much into anecdote here, but in my experience (and I was educated in one of the most conservative counties in PA), most families are not grooming their children to be extremists or for world domination (as some seem to be worried about).  Of the 100+ home-schooled students I know, only 2 have gone to Patrick Henry.  The rest go to more nominally Christian colleges and a large percentage of my graduating class (I would say close to half) went on to liberal arts or state schools to become doctors, teachers, writers and yes, even political scientists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Brendan and others who said that it is the ideology that seems to be the concern here.  If we really are concerned about educating students well, then I think home-schooling should continue to be an option.  Home-schooled kids tend to score higher than their public school peers on standardized tests and, in general, have the marks/scores to get into good colleges.  It is a great choice for students who are bored with conventional schooling or who have special needs that over-burdened schools can’t meet.  </p>
<p>However, regulation is important.  Pennsylvania (where I was educated, yes, by my mom, from K-12) has the strictest home-schooling laws in the country, requiring that the school districts review samples of students’ work each year, standardized tests and an evaluation of each pupil by a certified teacher.  Regulations such as these help to ensure that students are being taught what they need to learn.  They might not prevent against “indoctrination,” but again, parents influence their kids no matter where they go to school and many private schools teach Creationism, conservatism, etc. as well. </p>
<p>While the movement was originally started by hippies who didn’t want their kids tainted by the establishment, it’s true that a large percentage of home-schooling families do so for religious reasons.  I don’t want to delve too much into anecdote here, but in my experience (and I was educated in one of the most conservative counties in PA), most families are not grooming their children to be extremists or for world domination (as some seem to be worried about).  Of the 100+ home-schooled students I know, only 2 have gone to Patrick Henry.  The rest go to more nominally Christian colleges and a large percentage of my graduating class (I would say close to half) went on to liberal arts or state schools to become doctors, teachers, writers and yes, even political scientists.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7825</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7825</guid>
		<description>Nate, I agree that it is moronic to protest the Bodies and Body Worlds exhibits because God wouldn&#039;t want us to learn about our insides or something, but it&#039;s true that there are some, uh, questionable practices at work in the creation of those exhibits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, I agree that it is moronic to protest the Bodies and Body Worlds exhibits because God wouldn&#039;t want us to learn about our insides or something, but it&#039;s true that there are some, uh, questionable practices at work in the creation of those exhibits.</p>
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		<title>By: Peggy</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7824</link>
		<dc:creator>Peggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7824</guid>
		<description>Dealing with as many insane parents as I do, I can sort of see the reasoning behind &quot;homeschooling = a terrible idea,&quot; but I also have met a lot of shitty, shitty teachers. I&#039;d agree with those above who suggest that indoctrination isn&#039;t a homeschooled-kids-only issue (if only it were!); my main beef with homeschooling has always been the social development problems. AND THAT I NEED THOSE KIDS IN SCHOOL SO I CAN GET PAID, SON! 

Uh I mean. Oops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dealing with as many insane parents as I do, I can sort of see the reasoning behind &#034;homeschooling = a terrible idea,&#034; but I also have met a lot of shitty, shitty teachers. I&#039;d agree with those above who suggest that indoctrination isn&#039;t a homeschooled-kids-only issue (if only it were!); my main beef with homeschooling has always been the social development problems. AND THAT I NEED THOSE KIDS IN SCHOOL SO I CAN GET PAID, SON! </p>
<p>Uh I mean. Oops.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7822</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7822</guid>
		<description>Grace - very interesting post. I largely agree with you, and that is the point I was trying to make above. I haven&#039;t seen statistics, but I&#039;d be willing to hypothesize that homeschooled children&#039;s beliefs don&#039;t differ so much from their peers once you control for their parents&#039; ideology.

J. Dryden - fascinating post. I think I would qualify Mr. Sagan&#039;s argument by saying that science can be just as &quot;fun&quot; as religion, but only after you go through the arduous process of learning the fundamentals. To me, black holes are exponentially more interesting than the thought of turning water into wine. For that matter, I find the prospect that we owe our existence to random processes occurring on a random planet in a random solar system in a random galaxy (in a random universe?) far more awe-inspiring than the creationist story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grace &#8211; very interesting post. I largely agree with you, and that is the point I was trying to make above. I haven&#039;t seen statistics, but I&#039;d be willing to hypothesize that homeschooled children&#039;s beliefs don&#039;t differ so much from their peers once you control for their parents&#039; ideology.</p>
<p>J. Dryden &#8211; fascinating post. I think I would qualify Mr. Sagan&#039;s argument by saying that science can be just as &#034;fun&#034; as religion, but only after you go through the arduous process of learning the fundamentals. To me, black holes are exponentially more interesting than the thought of turning water into wine. For that matter, I find the prospect that we owe our existence to random processes occurring on a random planet in a random solar system in a random galaxy (in a random universe?) far more awe-inspiring than the creationist story.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7820</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7820</guid>
		<description>On the plus side, because of the very first installment of Ed vs. Logical Fallacies, I know the proper term for the misguided reasoning that &quot;well, evolution requires belief, and creationism requires belief, therefore they are equally valid.&quot; 

Thanks Ed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the plus side, because of the very first installment of Ed vs. Logical Fallacies, I know the proper term for the misguided reasoning that &#034;well, evolution requires belief, and creationism requires belief, therefore they are equally valid.&#034; </p>
<p>Thanks Ed!</p>
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		<title>By: Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7818</link>
		<dc:creator>Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 02:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7818</guid>
		<description>I have to tell you that while I agree this is a scary video - I think the comments were just as scary.

You all seemed to think that the homeschooling is the abuse - the mental abuse shown here - stems from the indoctrination . . . that can take place whether the parents have the child(ren) in private school, public school, or homeschool.

I homeschool only one of my kids - for very specific reasons, the rest go to public school.  I teach all my kids science, social studies, and history at home with supplemental lessons.  As a resident of the Bible Belt, they either learn EXACTLY what is tested by standardized testing, a faux lesson with creationist subtext, or nothing.  If I want my children to have a firm grasp on astrology, evolution, or anything that directly challeges the biblical interpretation of the universe . . . I have to provide it, or a way for them to get it themselves!  Quite honestly my 11 year old (a declared atheist who has been asked not to return to my grandmother&#039;s church) could debate these men down to the point of tears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to tell you that while I agree this is a scary video &#8211; I think the comments were just as scary.</p>
<p>You all seemed to think that the homeschooling is the abuse &#8211; the mental abuse shown here &#8211; stems from the indoctrination . . . that can take place whether the parents have the child(ren) in private school, public school, or homeschool.</p>
<p>I homeschool only one of my kids &#8211; for very specific reasons, the rest go to public school.  I teach all my kids science, social studies, and history at home with supplemental lessons.  As a resident of the Bible Belt, they either learn EXACTLY what is tested by standardized testing, a faux lesson with creationist subtext, or nothing.  If I want my children to have a firm grasp on astrology, evolution, or anything that directly challeges the biblical interpretation of the universe . . . I have to provide it, or a way for them to get it themselves!  Quite honestly my 11 year old (a declared atheist who has been asked not to return to my grandmother&#039;s church) could debate these men down to the point of tears.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7817</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7817</guid>
		<description>Shit.  I used to go to that museum all the time as a kid.  I bet these are the same people that protested Body Worlds because they said it &quot;wasn&#039;t respecful to the dignity of the human body.&quot;  Those idiots just tainted another golden childhood memory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shit.  I used to go to that museum all the time as a kid.  I bet these are the same people that protested Body Worlds because they said it &#034;wasn&#039;t respecful to the dignity of the human body.&#034;  Those idiots just tainted another golden childhood memory.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Dryden</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2008/03/26/state-sanctioned-child-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-7816</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Dryden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=857#comment-7816</guid>
		<description>Carl Sagan&#039;s last (I think) book, THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD, should be--OK, well, I don&#039;t want to overuse the phrase &#039;required-reading&#039;--*strongly encouraged* reading for people who strive to understand the appeal of the irrational. It&#039;s not just that it&#039;s &quot;easy&quot;--though it is--it&#039;s that it&#039;s *fun*. It&#039;s *cool*. UFOs and Bigfoot and Healing Crystals and Creationism are just more *fun* than dull ol&#039; science and math and logic. Think about it--imagine if you could walk into a museum and &#039;see&#039; the creatures who died during the Flood--how awesome would that be? Which is more fun--a clever Creator who magically spins the world out of His imagination, or a bunch of particles banging together until you get primordial soup and amino acids? Science doesn&#039;t give you Santa Claus--it tells you that there *is* no Santa Claus; it&#039;s as simple as that.

And of course it&#039;s terribly easy to indoctrinate children because the cool/easy explanation--the one that&#039;s all &#039;imagination&#039; and no &#039;facts&#039;--is going to naturally appeal to their undisciplined, excitable young minds. Plus they&#039;re being given a nifty Bad Guy to team up against (Big Atheism), so that&#039;s always fun. What&#039;s sad is that their imagination isn&#039;t, in the end, being encouraged, but stifled--they&#039;re not even being encouraged to explore/develop their faith, but to pigeon-hole it into a rigid, miserable conformity designed to produce the most joyless form of religious experience. Ah well, at least we don&#039;t elect these people to high office. Oh, wait...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl Sagan&#039;s last (I think) book, THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD, should be&#8211;OK, well, I don&#039;t want to overuse the phrase &#039;required-reading&#039;&#8211;*strongly encouraged* reading for people who strive to understand the appeal of the irrational. It&#039;s not just that it&#039;s &#034;easy&#034;&#8211;though it is&#8211;it&#039;s that it&#039;s *fun*. It&#039;s *cool*. UFOs and Bigfoot and Healing Crystals and Creationism are just more *fun* than dull ol&#039; science and math and logic. Think about it&#8211;imagine if you could walk into a museum and &#039;see&#039; the creatures who died during the Flood&#8211;how awesome would that be? Which is more fun&#8211;a clever Creator who magically spins the world out of His imagination, or a bunch of particles banging together until you get primordial soup and amino acids? Science doesn&#039;t give you Santa Claus&#8211;it tells you that there *is* no Santa Claus; it&#039;s as simple as that.</p>
<p>And of course it&#039;s terribly easy to indoctrinate children because the cool/easy explanation&#8211;the one that&#039;s all &#039;imagination&#039; and no &#039;facts&#039;&#8211;is going to naturally appeal to their undisciplined, excitable young minds. Plus they&#039;re being given a nifty Bad Guy to team up against (Big Atheism), so that&#039;s always fun. What&#039;s sad is that their imagination isn&#039;t, in the end, being encouraged, but stifled&#8211;they&#039;re not even being encouraged to explore/develop their faith, but to pigeon-hole it into a rigid, miserable conformity designed to produce the most joyless form of religious experience. Ah well, at least we don&#039;t elect these people to high office. Oh, wait&#8230;</p>
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