<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: FACTS ARE STUPID THINGS</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/</link>
	<description>OPIATE OF THE ASSES</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:42:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: bpasinko</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16336</link>
		<dc:creator>bpasinko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16336</guid>
		<description>The Big Hurt is rarely mentioned in best of conversations so I&#039;m glad to see him in this one.  However, even as someone who loves arguing that Griffey isn&#039;t as good as often said, I don&#039;t think I agree Thomas was a better player than Griffey in the 90s AL.  Also, anytime you are comparing players I think it&#039;s fair to compare relative to their position, otherwise it&#039;s simply a who&#039;s a better hitter.   This isn&#039;t a matter of Griffey being the best fielding CF ever because he is far from it, but if you are starting a team you&#039;ll take the CF every time even if he produces less with the bat.  

Just look at their historical WAR from baseballprojection.com.  From 1990-1999  Griffey&#039;s was 65.9, Thomas&#039; 54.3.  I&#039;m a little biased because I&#039;m a big fan of positional adjustments but I think Griffey is the clear favorite.   I really want to agree with you because Frank Thomas seems to be eternally underrated, but I just can&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Big Hurt is rarely mentioned in best of conversations so I&#039;m glad to see him in this one.  However, even as someone who loves arguing that Griffey isn&#039;t as good as often said, I don&#039;t think I agree Thomas was a better player than Griffey in the 90s AL.  Also, anytime you are comparing players I think it&#039;s fair to compare relative to their position, otherwise it&#039;s simply a who&#039;s a better hitter.   This isn&#039;t a matter of Griffey being the best fielding CF ever because he is far from it, but if you are starting a team you&#039;ll take the CF every time even if he produces less with the bat.  </p>
<p>Just look at their historical WAR from baseballprojection.com.  From 1990-1999  Griffey&#039;s was 65.9, Thomas&#039; 54.3.  I&#039;m a little biased because I&#039;m a big fan of positional adjustments but I think Griffey is the clear favorite.   I really want to agree with you because Frank Thomas seems to be eternally underrated, but I just can&#039;t.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16254</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16254</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Frank Thomas being on pace for that many RBIs was completely meaningless.  Give me a fucking break.  He was a great overall hitter, one of the best ever.  RBIs are heavily influenced by who&#039;s on base and how many, but look how many he had.  He hit for average, he hit homers, he got walks, and he knocked guy in.  He was a great overall hitter in every conceivable facet of hitting.  I also believe some guys are better hitters when there is somebody is scoring position than others.  I realize there has been a recent notion of everybody downplaying &quot;clutchness&quot; in baseball, but I believe there is some semblance in the sport.  Some guys have historically better numbers in later innings than others.  Who&#039;s to say the reasons why besides random chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Frank Thomas being on pace for that many RBIs was completely meaningless.  Give me a fucking break.  He was a great overall hitter, one of the best ever.  RBIs are heavily influenced by who&#039;s on base and how many, but look how many he had.  He hit for average, he hit homers, he got walks, and he knocked guy in.  He was a great overall hitter in every conceivable facet of hitting.  I also believe some guys are better hitters when there is somebody is scoring position than others.  I realize there has been a recent notion of everybody downplaying &#034;clutchness&#034; in baseball, but I believe there is some semblance in the sport.  Some guys have historically better numbers in later innings than others.  Who&#039;s to say the reasons why besides random chance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jon Grayson</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16251</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Grayson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 03:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16251</guid>
		<description>Daniel, I hate to burst your bubble, but rbi&#039;s are an absolutely meaningless stat.  I&#039;m exaggerating a tad to be sure, but there are so many better individual stats (OBP, VORP, EQAVG, etc).  It&#039;s like looking at the stock price of the company you work for as a barometer of your personal performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, I hate to burst your bubble, but rbi&#039;s are an absolutely meaningless stat.  I&#039;m exaggerating a tad to be sure, but there are so many better individual stats (OBP, VORP, EQAVG, etc).  It&#039;s like looking at the stock price of the company you work for as a barometer of your personal performance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16216</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16216</guid>
		<description>Oh, I took his status as a tremendously overrated CF into account.

The question, specifically, was whether Thomas or Griffey was the best AL player (read the opening sentence, which excludes Bonds) of the decade. Not which one was best relative to the other players at his position.

I see some value in your comment but it seems to miss the point of the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I took his status as a tremendously overrated CF into account.</p>
<p>The question, specifically, was whether Thomas or Griffey was the best AL player (read the opening sentence, which excludes Bonds) of the decade. Not which one was best relative to the other players at his position.</p>
<p>I see some value in your comment but it seems to miss the point of the post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16215</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16215</guid>
		<description>Just sent this post to a friend.  He sent me the following response: 

There is just so much I disagree with in this post.  But first an interesting anecdote:  my father being from Gary, Indiana, growing up I always was caught up on Chicago sports.  One day I was at the O&#039;s game and Frank Thomas struck out with two outs and the bases loaded  (he was never known for being clutch).  I turned to my father and said, &quot;He&#039;s just not having his best year&quot;.  In fact, he was having his best year (at the time at least).  It was 1993.  

As for the analysis:

For one, he doesn&#039;t account for position value at all.  To have a power hitting center fielder is a significantly more rare commodity than first basemen.  Yes, Thomas was great but he was a one of many power hitting first basement in the steroid era.  The same isn&#039;t quite as true for, say Albert Pujols, because power hitters are more of a rare commodity then they were then.  He is definitely right to warn against overrating Griffey&#039;s defense (gold gloves are meaningless See: Derek Jeter, and to a lesser extent Michael Young).  But it doesn&#039;t change the fact that to compare their value over a replacement player at that position would show that Griffey is by far superior statistically.  The biggest argument, which he doesn&#039;t bring up, is FT&#039;s favor is durability.  Griffey spent a lot of time on the DL which one can argue hurts his value but, at the same time, makes his numbers seem that much more ridiculous.

All that aside, the debate just seems silly to assume that either of the two are the best of their era.  To warn against overrating Griffey due to the media darling-hood, but to then not even mention maybe the most underrated player ever (due to media bastard-hood) is contradictory.  I think without a doubt Barry Bonds is the best player of the 1990s, if not the best player ever.  Before the 90&#039;s even began. He had amassed over 100 steals and almost 100 home runs.  He hadn&#039;t even taken off yet.  If you want to get in the steroid debate, you have to include every player in that era.  (For the record, athletes were using Monkey steroids in the 1930s... the steroid debate is pretty stupid--it is the nature of the athlete to get any edge possible)  Overall, the media--and probably history-- is far too unkind to unsympathetic players who used steroids, and far too kind to sympathetic players who used steroids.  If you&#039;re just looking at who the most valuable player was in the 90&#039;s, it is without a doubt Barry Bonds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just sent this post to a friend.  He sent me the following response: </p>
<p>There is just so much I disagree with in this post.  But first an interesting anecdote:  my father being from Gary, Indiana, growing up I always was caught up on Chicago sports.  One day I was at the O&#039;s game and Frank Thomas struck out with two outs and the bases loaded  (he was never known for being clutch).  I turned to my father and said, &#034;He&#039;s just not having his best year&#034;.  In fact, he was having his best year (at the time at least).  It was 1993.  </p>
<p>As for the analysis:</p>
<p>For one, he doesn&#039;t account for position value at all.  To have a power hitting center fielder is a significantly more rare commodity than first basemen.  Yes, Thomas was great but he was a one of many power hitting first basement in the steroid era.  The same isn&#039;t quite as true for, say Albert Pujols, because power hitters are more of a rare commodity then they were then.  He is definitely right to warn against overrating Griffey&#039;s defense (gold gloves are meaningless See: Derek Jeter, and to a lesser extent Michael Young).  But it doesn&#039;t change the fact that to compare their value over a replacement player at that position would show that Griffey is by far superior statistically.  The biggest argument, which he doesn&#039;t bring up, is FT&#039;s favor is durability.  Griffey spent a lot of time on the DL which one can argue hurts his value but, at the same time, makes his numbers seem that much more ridiculous.</p>
<p>All that aside, the debate just seems silly to assume that either of the two are the best of their era.  To warn against overrating Griffey due to the media darling-hood, but to then not even mention maybe the most underrated player ever (due to media bastard-hood) is contradictory.  I think without a doubt Barry Bonds is the best player of the 1990s, if not the best player ever.  Before the 90&#039;s even began. He had amassed over 100 steals and almost 100 home runs.  He hadn&#039;t even taken off yet.  If you want to get in the steroid debate, you have to include every player in that era.  (For the record, athletes were using Monkey steroids in the 1930s&#8230; the steroid debate is pretty stupid&#8211;it is the nature of the athlete to get any edge possible)  Overall, the media&#8211;and probably history&#8211; is far too unkind to unsympathetic players who used steroids, and far too kind to sympathetic players who used steroids.  If you&#039;re just looking at who the most valuable player was in the 90&#039;s, it is without a doubt Barry Bonds.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16208</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16208</guid>
		<description>Albert Belle wasn&#039;t as good as either Frank or Griff.  He was definitely one of the best hitters of the 90s though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Albert Belle wasn&#039;t as good as either Frank or Griff.  He was definitely one of the best hitters of the 90s though.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tommytimp</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16203</link>
		<dc:creator>tommytimp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16203</guid>
		<description>I live in Chicago and love both the Cubs and the Sox, and fuck you if you say I have to choose one or the other. It was great watching Ryne Sandberg carry the Cubs through the 80s and Lord, watching Thomas hit in the 90s, when he was on, was like watching a grown man playing with little kids.

Anyone ever throw Albert Belle in the mix? Loathsome, but pretty good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in Chicago and love both the Cubs and the Sox, and fuck you if you say I have to choose one or the other. It was great watching Ryne Sandberg carry the Cubs through the 80s and Lord, watching Thomas hit in the 90s, when he was on, was like watching a grown man playing with little kids.</p>
<p>Anyone ever throw Albert Belle in the mix? Loathsome, but pretty good.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alan C</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16199</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16199</guid>
		<description>I am a Mariner fan and am glad to see Griffey back here this year, mostly for sentimental reasons and because he seems a good clubhouse presence.  I will not dispute any of the reasoning in this post.  I might add, though, that more than any player Griffey saved baseball in Seattle.  If it hadn&#039;t been for the team&#039;s 1995 playoff run, of which Griffey was a big part, they&#039;d be the Tampa Bay Mariners now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a Mariner fan and am glad to see Griffey back here this year, mostly for sentimental reasons and because he seems a good clubhouse presence.  I will not dispute any of the reasoning in this post.  I might add, though, that more than any player Griffey saved baseball in Seattle.  If it hadn&#039;t been for the team&#039;s 1995 playoff run, of which Griffey was a big part, they&#039;d be the Tampa Bay Mariners now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jon Grayson</title>
		<link>http://www.ginandtacos.com/2009/07/05/facts-are-stupid-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16198</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Grayson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ginandtacos.com/?p=2134#comment-16198</guid>
		<description>As a lifelong Houstonian, I am compelled to mention the great Bill James essay about how/why Craig Biggio is also superior to Griffey Jr.  Unlike some of the counterarguments presented here against Thomas, he was superior defensively at two difficult positions (2b, c), besides being an OBP and SB machine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a lifelong Houstonian, I am compelled to mention the great Bill James essay about how/why Craig Biggio is also superior to Griffey Jr.  Unlike some of the counterarguments presented here against Thomas, he was superior defensively at two difficult positions (2b, c), besides being an OBP and SB machine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
