To enter into discussion with a Gun Person is to start a clock and know confidently that before it hits the ten minute mark they will state that private gun ownership is an important check on the tyranny of government. When subjected to logic this statement is roughly equivalent to a toddler playing with a toy steering wheel in the backseat and believing that he is driving the car.
What will it take to convince these people that The Government manifestly, demonstrably is not afraid of your guns.
The gaggle of dipshits playing toy soldiers in Oregon right now are learning that the hard way. What The Government appears to fear is the negative public relations that result from using force against white people, which is why this situation dragged on long past a reasonable display of patience. Make no mistake, had these people been Muslims or black or college hippie environmentalists or had there simply been less patience for their stupid antics, The Government could have resolved this in an hour. Kill the power, roll armored vehicles up to the door, and circle the building with every armed Federal agent west of the Mississippi.
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Give them 60 seconds to come out with their hands up, then roll in and start shooting. Better yet, set the building on fire.
That's exactly how this would have played out were they not all redneck white guys. And in that scenario, being armed would not have accomplished a goddamn thing for anyone inside.
Watch this, if you can. I've nicknamed this patriot GI Sloppy Joe:
YouTube comments are rarely a fountain of common sense and reason, but to quote the great philosopher of our time "Boob72", "Just send in a drone and light these cunts up FFS." I'm certainly not one to advocate for the increased use of violence by law enforcement, but given the ridiculous amount commonly used I'd at least enjoy knowing that it's applied consistently. And what this blubbering idiot does not appear to understand is that if his paranoid rantings were based on reality and The Government did in fact give enough of a shit about him to kill him, they would do it. They have a lot more ability to use force than this moron and his handful of like-minded morons. Remember how law enforcement agencies around the nation are absolutely drowning in military surplus equipment? Yeah. When they roll up on Sloppy Joe in a vehicle designed to withstand hits from rocket-propelled grenades and fly overhead with a couple of snipers in a helicopter, what exactly is that gun going to do for him? He may believe that it is protecting him; in reality the only thing keeping him alive is the color of his skin and the number of people almost as stupid and insane as him holding elected office these days.
They are not afraid of you and they're not afraid of your gun. There are more of them than you. They are far better armed. They have body armor, air assets, armored vehicles, and they're (probably) much smarter than you because they've dealt with idiots like you before. If there's one thing American law enforcement at every level have proven over and over again – Aren't these very Patriots always bringing up Waco? – it's that if they decide you're not being taken alive, you're not being taken alive.
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They're not exactly hesitant to apply lethal force when they see someone holding a gun, which even by a cynic's definition would be one of the few instances when a cop could say "I feared for my life" and not be full of shit.
I'm sure we could fill a warehouse with everything the man in that video fails to understand. Of all his misconceptions, though, the fact that he thinks his scoped penis extension is keeping him safe is the most egregious. The law merely has gotten sick of indulging these children and even still he can't recognize how he's being handled with kid gloves.
Mo says:
oregonlive.com is the mother lode on this one. Their reporters deserve medals. I confess to smirking at the bit about the pop tarts.
You'd think the example of one hysterical fool getting shot dead would suffice, but no…
RosiesDad says:
Had the government handled Cliven Bundy and his armed supporters properly–i.e. Given them 30 seconds to stand down and disperse before lighting them up from a drone or an Apache assault helicopter–there would have been no situation to deal with in Oregon.
Indulging stupid (and or ignorant) armed white men only encourages them.
Mo says:
Actually, RD, the thought of the police force "lighting up" its own citizenry with drones and military weaponry alarms the fucking hell out of me.
Do we really want the Kochtopus going after us with RPGs if we picket outside some mansion or other?
A long, slow, expensive root canal of a trial for some felony is bad enough if you happen to be on the defense side.
RosiesDad says:
Mo: I don't favor the use of extreme or deadly force, especially where unarmed citizens are concerned. But when a bunch of armed yahoos level weapons at law enforcement or government agents, that's a different situation entirely.
coozledad says:
These boobs have bought the idea their skin tone not only confers immunity from the law, it has also revealed the Constitution to them in a set of religious tableaux.
The only ones who have been outside their Mormon or Baptist shitholes have only been to other shitholes. Fuck whatever it is they're angry at, can you imagine what kind of hoglot they'd be happy in?
Fuck this country for making these creatures. They're just the Manson Family with a media empire sucking their puds.
Heywood J. says:
That video is awesome. Whenever they get around to making a live-action South Park movie, I think we have our Eric Cartman. Respeck mah authoritah!
HoosierPoli says:
I make this point endlessly. We ALREADY HAVE gun control: you can't buy an RPG. The government has tanks; without RPGs your little pissant semiauto .223 might as well be a butter knife.
Wim says:
You could call it epistemic closure. You could call it folie a deux. It's what comes of believing your own bullshit and getting high on your own supply. I don't know how you reach people who preemptively reject reason and common decency and indulge in infantile fantasies of power and slaughter, other than with armor-piercing ammunition. I am so sick of this shit.
Talisker says:
Another thing Ed didn't explicitly mention: They have coordination and tactics.
Police SWAT officers, let alone soldiers, train for this kind of thing daily. It is their job. They are able to move and fight as a team. If GI Sloppy Joe and his dipshit buddies think a few weekends playing paintball constitute equivalent training, they are very much mistaken.
Katydid says:
I got into a rather heated debate this past weekend over this when a yahoo from Idaho who's relocated to my area informed me that I 'just don't understand' the west. You're right, I don't. The ancestors of these yahoos were given land for practically nothing (I think it was $25 for 160 acres) because the federal government slaughtered all the Native Americans using that land. All they had to do was keep a human living on it for five years. They could add on to their holdings by having another family member claim an adjacent 160 acres. The Bundy clan (and no doubt others) run their cattle on land they don't own and refuse to pay for it. The whole "tree of nuts" took over Malheur, which is federal property, in a giant temper-tantrum because they wanted MORE free stuff. You're right, I don't understand that "taker" mentality–they're all a bunch of freeloaders.
The guy who I was arguing with, a Mormon, was furious that a woman would dare speak to him that way. Which is yet another thing I hate about that culture. They'll use the women as human shields in standoffs with the government, but don't one of them dare speak the truth to them.
waspuppet says:
"Kill the power …"
Why that wasn't done on Day 1 — during Hour 1 — mystifies me. Well, it doesn't really, because white.
doug says:
If I follow the logic, we couldn't help but beat the shit out of the Vietnamese. Superior air power, ground power, etc. just as you mention….
Also: ' That's exactly how this would have played out were they not all redneck white guys. '
You can theorize that, but don't start thinking you are Nostradamus…Personally, I think some policies were changed after waco and ruby ridge craziness, and changed for the better. It is almost like there is bloodthirst here for the stupid imbeciles in oregon. They deserve pity and appropriate penalty, not death. A felony conviction means they can't legally have a gun. That works for me.
Nan says:
Katydid mentioned something that could be the main reason the government took its time before starting to arrest the yeehawdists: human shields. There were kids at Malheur. The feds might not have had a problem with shooting Tarp Man but killing white kids would be a PR disaster.
Mike R says:
doug, don't under estimate the Vietnamese. They had tactics and an actual trained army. The NVA were very disciplined and had a reasonably well established chain of command. They also had a couple of things these goofballs didn't, they had the USSR and China providing military support. Do remember one hell of a lot of Vietnamese died, and the leadership was willing to commit to having a large portion of their population die in the effort to consolidate power.
The NVA had artillery, rockets and air power defending their base of North Vietnam. The Bundy Bunch were just crazed buffoons with rifles and delusions of grandeur.
doug says:
Mike, Thanks for that comment. you are right. I am not underestimating them. That went on long enough.
and yes, I agree on the Bundy Bunch description, but they deserve pity not death.
Some 'liberals' here are calling for death or a 'drone up their ass' or…. Don't become your enemy is my admonition to them….
Mo is right….
Major Kong says:
@doug
Plenty of armed insurrections have been put down over the years. The F.A.R.C. and the Tamil Tigers in most recent memory.
The Syrian rebels were being slaughtered prior to outside involvement due to their lack of anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry. There's only so much you can do with small arms.
People like to bring up Vietnam, but Vietnam was more of a proxy war between the US and Russia/China than anything else.
Those weren't AK-47s shooting our planes down over Hanoi. They were state-of-the-art (for the day) SA-2 missiles to the tune of about a million rubles each.
c u n d gulag says:
Sometimes, humiliating and mocking "MORANS!" Like Sloppy GI Joe, is the best medecine.
Yeah, cut power and communication – no cell phones, no media interviews (if a gaggle of armed yahoo capture a bird sanctuary in a forest, and there's no video or audio, do they make a noise when they fail?) – and cut-off supplies they're requesting – except bags of dick's, of course – and when they run out of butt's, Slim-Jims, and Bud Light's, eventually they'll come crawling out.
And when they do, have all of the police and military laugh at them.
And then, 'well regulate their militia' by putting them all behind bars for a few years with felony charges.
Oh, and after you finally get out, no more steel-penis extenders of death anymore, boys!
Mike R says:
doug, agree they didn't and don't deserve death. Too bad that the dead cowboy panicked or was just incredibly stupid.
Skipper says:
First of all, the Founders did not intend the Second Amendment as a way for citizens to take up arms against the government. In fact, they were quite clear that they considered that treason.The purpose of the well-regulated militias was to protect the government.
Second, there were — while the Founders were still running the shop — several armed Bundy-like insurrections. The government used the well-regulated militias to put them down.
In addition to what Ed said about massive firepower, etc., there are other ways the government could quell any serious insurrection in a matter of days — without even revving up an apache helicopter.
1. Turn of the fuel supply. If the yahoo "patriots" can't get gas for the 4x4s, they aren't going anywhere. The only place there will be armed insurrections will be at the gas stations as they fight with each other over the last few drops of gas.
2. The government also has the ability to flip the switch and shot down cell towers, severely limiting the ability of these jokers to coordinate.
3. The government can also flip a switch and shot down the Internet, or at least relevant ISPs.
This means the insurgents will be on foot in the middle of the wilderness they call home, unable to contact any of their "army" or the outside world for that matter.
It will be the modern version of a medieval siege.
Mark says:
Should the government have handled the Occupy Wall Street nuts in the same manner , i.e. roll armored vehicles up to Zuccotti Park and give the nut jobs sixty seconds to disperse. No, that would not do for these poor souls who were no more than libtards protesting a non event. They deserved the right to take over a public property and trash the place. Idiots.
c u n d gulag says:
WHOOOOPS!
I almost forgot the plaintive call of these red-necked, yellow-bellied SAP'S-suckers, calling their militia mates-in-arms to come to the Bird Sanctuary for help:
"Wolverines!
WOLVERINES!!!
Wolverines?
Wolve…
Cowards…"
Chicagojon says:
Oh yah??? I heard that this is all staged as a way to prevent real militias from forming and protecting our freedoms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVe5nh7Da4g
bb in GA says:
@Major or other military historians
How well supported (beyond small arms) were the Afghanis when they ground the USSR to a standstill during the Osama era ?
//bb
SeaTea1967 says:
Apparently stealing billions and crashing the world economy was a "non-event" to Mark. Mark is not very smart.
charluckles says:
It's worse than that. It's a sop, given to morons so that they can stand up for something while their jobs, security and rights are quietly shuffled out the back door.
Kovpakistan says:
Mark, Zucotti park is not public property. The "Occupiers" were there with the permission of the owners, and when they no longer had it, they left with little fanfare. San Diego's Occupy rally was more eventful by comparison.
What you fail to realize is that if leftists said they were going to engage in protracted people's war and then occupied federal property with arms, many of us expect that the government would most likely mow them down just as soon as they determined there were no hostages inside.
By contrast, a bunch of angry white men get the kid gloves, so no wonder they continue to act like children. Children with guns, that is.
Kovpakistan says:
BB, to answer your question, the Afghan mujehadeen didn't defeat the USSR militarily, and took several more years to defeat the DRA government even after the Soviets cut it off. Most of the time they were getting their asses kicked until Stinger, Redeye, and Blowpipe MANPADs were delivered to them. If anything the Soviets undermined themselves by barging in and killing Hafizullah Amin.
I think what people need to realize here is that we're not talking about guerrillas in a foreign land, but rather THEIR OWN. The US government already has tons of data on these people and access to tons more if they need it. They will know the lay of the land because they mapped it. What is more, unlike the mujehadeen, Viet Cong, Taliban, etc., most of these guys aren't living on a war footing. They own registered property like houses and cars and what not. They're no doubt on mailing lists of every sort. They may have their "prep gear" in the garage, but on most days they work (or leech off social security or a spouse's income), come home, and watch football. They have BBQ cookouts. If the government ever decides it's time to round these people up into the FEMA camp, it will make up a list of their names in secret and hit them whenever they are most vulnerable- little league games, family cookouts, church, Wal-Mart. They wouldn't stand a chance.
Delbort says:
Let's not forget that the Occupiers weren't armed to the teeth and threatening to start a violent insurrection.
bb in GA says:
@kovpakistan
Thanks for the details.
In the end, all the things you detailed about the 'Resistance' I believe are true.
The only difference, at this point, that small arms make is that if you wish to resist the government, they might (just might..) give you the opportunity to choose the manner of your death. Thus, the line 'Take some with you…'
But I think that if things got serious enough, a second generation of Resisters might arise that would be in the tradition of other guerilla movements.
We did not descend to Orwell's nightmare by 1984. With no change in the trends real soon, we will get there way before 2084.
//bb
Major Kong says:
@bb
As I recall, the Afghans were taking a beating from Soviet attack helicopters until we started shipping them Stinger missiles.
Apparently arming a bunch of radical Islamists and teaching them how to fight a superpower seemed like a good idea at the time.
Mo says:
bb – just curious, who or what do you envision as Big Brother in 2084?
Also curious what, exactly, are the specific trends you see leading to authoritarian doom?
bb in GA says:
@mo
Stream of consciousness….
Technology – while I'm not a Luddite, I don't like the wealth of personal information available to the government. I have seen it abused in strange ways even down on the local level.
On the Federal level – the IRS is the tool that politicians (all parties) have used to harass and intimidate citizens who get out of line. Nixon's enemies list… Ms Lerner's BS comes to mind. People who stand out get audited who never experienced that before. Post hoc logical fallacy ? Seems that it has happened a lot.
FBI – spying on MLK and suggesting that he kill himself back in the day. Just because that evil bastard J. Edgar Hoover died, do you think the culture of the FBI has changed in the last generation ?
CIA – drug running and regime changing fairly well documented. License to kill throughout their history. Since they don't seem to be accountable, who is to say what they are up to.
NSA – how many terrorists have they deterred/captured with all their spookin'
Mega Global Corporate marriage to Government (exemplified by the classic MIC) and the true definition of fascism manifests
that's enough…
Mo, maybe I'm just a paranoid old man.
I hope so…
//bb
Khaled says:
I think a lot of the "just drone them FFS" comes from frustration that a bunch of white guys who are committing armed sedition gets kid gloves and law enforcement goes out of its way to end it "peacefully" while a black guy walking around hurting no one can get mowed down in cold blood and nothing happens.
As for the 2nd amendment, I'm not a American historian, but I think it's worth pointing out again what Skipper said. The Whiskey Rebellion is an example of citizens taking up arms against a tax that they considered unfair (more or less the same beef that these jokers have, government overreach, etc.) and the response by George Washington was to raise a militia (because the US had no standing army HINT HINT) and personally led the troops to put down the rebellion. So what was a "militia" that kept a "free state".
I'm of the opinion that goof-balls with guns who try and resist a democratically elected government, like we have, with firearms and threats of violence should be treated as if they are trying to start a coup d'tat, which is exactly what it they are trying to do.
BruceJ says:
Every time I see that video of GI Sloppy Joe, this picture pops into my head http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/510/angrybaby.jpg
jon says:
http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/
Love reading the comments here. Stuff about the legality of roadblocks, how even the video is suspect, how the government must have used hundreds of bullets because one witness said so, and general stupidity and the usual thoughts that "I could have done better in this situation."
Reminds me of inmates saying how they wouldn't get caught next time, only these prisoners of their own minds aren't even in prison yet. Stupid and insane. Truly insane.
Mo says:
bb – you missed a big one, the Kochtopus.
Jane Mayer has a new book out, Dark Money if you're in the mood for a gripping read.
The Koch brothers and their allies insist, and no doubt believe, that their war on big government has been motivated by their commitment to the individual freedoms that government interferes with. Still, “it was impossible not to notice,” Ms. Mayer writes, “that the political policies they embraced benefited their own bottom lines first and foremost. Lowering taxes and rolling back regulations, slashing the welfare state and obliterating the limits on campaign spending might or might not have helped others, but they most certainly strengthened the hand of extreme donors with extreme wealth.”
Man, Are We Dumb Bunnies
Mo says:
bb – or maybe you didn't – buying a political party is just a new riff on the MIC?
Robert says:
I didn't want them droned. I wanted it to drag on and on until it became clear that the Jackbooted Thugs of the Gummint were a fantasy. I wanted the vast majority of citizens who did not already agree with them to see them as dangerously deluded. I wanted their Sovereign Citizen mythology to be crushingly refuted by the ordinary rule of law. I wanted them to be farce, not tragedy.
I'm okay with what I got.
Mo says:
Beauty, Khaled.
I think a lot of the "just drone them FFS" comes from frustration that a bunch of white guys who are committing armed sedition gets kid gloves and law enforcement goes out of its way to end it "peacefully" while a black guy walking around hurting no one can get mowed down in cold blood and nothing happens.
I wonder how many of us are also getting fed to the teeth with the arms industry and NRA infesting our society with these armed whack-job secessionists. They sure look like packs of useful morons and ignoramuses, running dogs for Libertarian billionaires.
How to rid ourselves of such turbulent tools?
Michael says:
I have come to understand that the entire purpose of our society as it exists is to treat white conservatives with kid gloves and brutalize the rest of us as badly as necessary to maintain that status quo.
Mo says:
Last post, I swear:
Cheer yourself up, Robert, by reading the Oregonlive.com saga and the ludicrous cheap beer drinking, pop-tarts munching, dirty laundry and drama queen posturing. It's a hoot.
Letting them dissolve into rancid goo, followed by a legal process guaranteed to grind exceedingly painfully, and the strategy of patience while the perps hoist themselves on their own petard might actually have worked.
Plus, one guy actually got shot, so there's that. Too bad he cared more for his nutty imaginings than he did for his family.
Major Kong says:
I'm actually glad we didn't end up with another Waco/Ruby Ridge to serve as a rallying cry for these types.
I would have preferred that the authorities had closed off all access to the site and put them under siege. Shut off the power, shut off the water. Yeah, I know the pipes will freeze. Cost of doing business.
No internet. Jam their cell phones (it can be done).
Then let 'em stew in their own juices for a while.
EJ says:
I can't find the source right now, but I read something recently, written by somebody who studies military strategy for a living, that if you wanted to have a bunch of weekend warriors with AR-15s take on the combined might of the US military and law enforcement, you'd need at least 44 million of them to even have a prayer of succeeding. So yeah, over 13% of the US population (children included) in a state of armed rebellion and ready to die for the cause. Fully stocked with supplies and ammo and with a functional command structure in place. In other words, it's not possible.
If it really came down to it, your only hope is that the military would refuse to fire on their fellow citizens. Which, judging from some of the military people I know, and our track record as a country, is hardly a sure bet.
That said, the way this was handled was fine. These people are shitheads, but there was no need for another Waco or Ruby Ridge if it could be avoided. As to "well, what if they weren't white?," well the answer to that is that law enforcement needs to start respecting the rights of people of color. If they start violating everyone's rights equally, that's not really an improvement.
Monty says:
This. And in all likelihood a few years spent in a "pound you in the ass" facility will break them. These aren't hardcore gangbangers; these are middle aged bozos who watched Red Dawn a few too many hundred times.
Scout says:
Major Kong, I am in agreement with you. I'm glad this didn't end with the relatives of these wackos being able to wail and whine and claim martyrdom status for GI Sloppy and the rest.
And I am equally in agreement that they should have cut them off and starting freezing and starving them out on Day One of this idiotic cosplay.
Noel says:
cut them off yes and arrest them as they come out for SEDITION – nothing less!!! lock them up – "Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
A good five to ten years would be about right – 0n the high side for brother Ammon
John Danley says:
This turbo tard could be dismantled by your average security guard at First Farmers Bank in White Bluff, TN. His delusions of significance are about as intriguing as Joshua Feuerstien's Twitter account.
Fiddlin Bill says:
The other reason for a "well regulated militia" was the justified fear of a Nate Turner. (Justified given that the United States was founded on slavery.) That's still the other reason for the 2nd Amendment lunacy we are forced to live with, and why police shoot non-white people in circumstances where white people get reasoned with. The common-law principle is to always make sure the black and brown folks know they are always on thin ice.
Jack the Cold Warrior says:
Re, USSR v Afghanistan,
Read "Charlie Wilson's War", or see the movie of the same name starring Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts, and Phillip Seymour Hoffman. The movie is actually funny ( in spots) but fairly accurate on how Charlie Wilson over several years got Stingers, anti tank weapons, and billions of dollars of conventional munitions to the Afghan "freedom fighters". And won. Then we walked away and wouldn't even send them $1 million to build schools. And a large number of the "freedom fighters" turned into the repressive Taliban.
Kaleberg says:
Some years back the Randall Munro published an XKCD comic suggesting that Youtube include a feature to read people's comments aloud before posting them. Supposedly, the first comment was some moron complaining that this feature was moronic, because it made him sound like a moron. If the authorities had just rushed in with guns blazing no one would have realized just how moronic these guys were. That alone made it worth the wait. Why give them their Ragnorak when you pick them up quietly?
That's what happened at Wounded Knee in the 1970s, not the 1890s. The authorities surrounded the compound and settled in to wait it out. Eventually they cut off power and stopped allowing press access. There were a few shots exchanged, but that was it. At some point the negotiations began in earnest and occupiers started sneaking out and heading for home at night. The occupation ended peacefully. The last thing the government wanted was a new Indian war.
Also, someone should point out that some of the resistance fighters we funded in Afghanistan wound up as Al Qaeda.