We have to be careful. We can't risk upsetting them. That will radicalize them and create more problems in the future.
That's a strategy that our government applies with great consistency and success in exactly one situation: when armed white people are angry and waving guns around.
College students blocking a street? Break out the pepper spray and start cracking skulls. People protesting the fact that the police keep killing them? Same. Black guy holding a gun? Shoot first, ask no questions later. Muslims…existing? Put them under 24-hour surveillance. Security threats anywhere in the world? Bomb the living hell out of them, then wonder why we can't win the Hearts and Minds.
You see this kind of thinking on display everywhere, and it underscores how much we consider this to be the right of anyone white, waving a flag, and in a cowboy hat. Don't fill the place with tear gas and send in a hundred SWAT team members to shoot anyone who even looks like they might be thinking about touching a gun five or ten times. That might upset them. "We don't want another Waco!" Really? Why not? If law enforcement is going to be indiscriminately and excessively violent in this country it should be so for everyone.
CNN published this op-ed, which may be the most CNN thing of all time, with a bold intro about how These People Are Terrorists! before explaining that we absolutely can't use the least bit of force to arrest these people. I stopped counting after three Waco references. It's a good example of how deeply ingrained this mindset is.
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The state doesn't have to, nor does it ever, worry about angering black people. If anything radicalizes them to violence, we'll just respond with even more force.
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But hillbilly white people…that calls for indefinite tiptoeing. We wouldn't want to make any martyrs! Unless they're black, in which case there's no need to worry. We'll just rationalize how it's their fault they died.
If these people weren't white they'd probably all be dead or incarcerated already, or else they'd have half the National Guard and the entirety of the state police force waiting to bring about that outcome. If the government is worried about creating more of these people, maybe they should stop letting them act as they want with no consequences.
That doesn't work with dogs and toddlers; it won't work here.
Dr. Acula says:
I think the Fed reaction to these people has more to do with what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge than much else.
Xynzee says:
The "wookie chess" approach is failing here.
America has to face the fact that it's got a very serious problem. It's time to lance this boil once and for all, be done with it.
The interesting question will be how many in the military would "defect" to the insurgents side if push comes to shove. Especially those units stationed overseas at the moment.
Xynzee says:
I was reading that these nitwits want to bring their kids in to "live with them"*, cause you know nothing says quality family time like shared insurrection. If they're not going to bring them in with the Nat Guard, then they'd better mobilise a couple units of Specials before that happens.
*Didn't they do the kids as 'human shield' the last go round?
Katydid says:
Those "rill Murkkkuns" are occupying (see what I did there?) property owned by We The People. They're unwanted squatters. If we're too terrified to evict them by force the way we do 98-year-old widows who fall behind on the property taxes, it's time to cut the electricity and water and barricade the road out. Those idiots wouldn't last a week without food, water, toilets, and adulation of their like-minded cronies.
nonynony says:
If these people weren't white…
… they wouldn't be doing such a stupid thing in the first place. There is no way that anyone in this country other than aggrieved white men decide to hold a nature center hostage. It's such an utterly insane thing to do that only a group of crazy white people would think to do it.
This has got to be the single stupidest domestic terrorism incident in the history of this country. They've occupied a nature center. In almost literally the middle of nowhere. And plan to hold it "for years". Until they get some vaguely defined demands enacted – demands that involve the Feds turning Federal land over to the "locals" who don't want anything to do with them and just want them to go away.
This isn't like Waco or Ruby Ridge or even the Bundy Ranch – in those cases you've got people holed up in their own homes. In this case they've seized a building that isn't their home – a different setup entirely. They certainly can't have the kinds of stockpiles of food and water in there. And unlike the Waco setup there are no hostages in the building for the Feds to worry about so no reason to escalate the timetable. They can just cut off their water and power, settle in for a nice long siege, and wait for the idiots to come out and beg for food and clean water.
Tim H. says:
I respect the urge to simplify, but this isn't really a black & white issue, the squatters in question are business folk, lesser versions of the people who fund political campaigns. If the government cracked down on them, they might be endangering someone's bank account. If the occupation was done by run of the mill white trash, it would be over already, probably with a theatrical lack of restraint.
sluggo says:
Siege. Block them in, play crappy music 24/7, kill the power and water and let them rot.
As a member of "We the People" I want my money from these guys. This group grazed cattle on BLM land and burned BLM land. By definition, I, as well as each of you, own a share of this land and I want to be compensated.
I would have accepted cash, but now I just want to take it out of their hides. Let them rot.
Dave Dell says:
I've got a twenty that says none of them can tell you where the phrase, "We the people" originates, let alone any of the immediate following magnificent concepts.
Skipper says:
Big differences. The people in Waco and Ruby Ridge owned the property they were living on.
This an armed insurrection force — insurgents, if you will — who have invaded, seized, and are occupying government property and have a stated intention of destroying the government. Shoot them.
Well mostly says:
It's hard to take these paintball patriots seriously: agitated white males looking for a thrill. It's also not worth injury to any Federal personnel to clear them out.
The contrast in reaction of authorities is clear, compelling and troubling.
I've been through that area recently, yuck. It's a whole different kind of nothing there worth bothering with. If they want to spend the winter there maybe it's best to let them, minus any food water power and media trucks.
Later on send in Trump the negotiator. See how he does without the cameras rolling.
Until then, send in drones playing The Archies all day and night. Loudly.
c u n d gulag says:
Just let these armed yahoo's sit and stew.
The Fes's shouldn't do anything drastic.
What they should do, is what someone suggested earlier – sorrounded them, and cut-off their supplies.
The locals, for the most part, aren't with them.
And while waiting these loons out, the fed's ought to bring all sorts of charges against each and every single one of them – every thing from tresspassing, to armed insurrection.
Mostly, felonies, so that they'll have no legal rights to carry a gun.
Then, when they finally tire and go to leave, arrest every single yahoo, and throw the book at them.
We're a nation of laws – yeah, I know, try to suppress your laughter – so, let the law do the work of making these assholes regret the day they first let go of their tiny dicks, to pick-up a long, metal, dick substitute.
Katydid says:
Great point–these are the guys who graze their cattle on gov't land and refuse to pay even the stupidly-low grazing fees (profiting off we-the-people far more than any child receiving a discounted school lunch would). They also burned federal property–likely to cover up signs of illegally poaching elk and other protected wildlife. Now they've taken over federal property also owned by we-the-people. Biggest welfare moochers of all, and they should have to compensate we-the-people for everything they've stolen from us.
This whole situation just makes me so mad–the police had no problem tear-gassing and brutalizing a bunch of unarmed teenagers, but they're just letting the white moochers go about their business.
sluggo says:
First Ted, then Al and Peg, now Cliven and Ammon.
We clearly have a Bundy problem here.
jtr says:
These guys talk a lot about how Big Gubmint needs to return their "constitutional rights," which apparently includes the right to do whatever the hell you want on land that doesn't belong to you. For some reason, the less conservatives know about the Constitution, the more they feel the need to talk about it. The Property Clause could not be more clear that the government has the right to own and regulate federal lands: "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States."
Major Kong says:
Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Noel says:
Block them in, cut off water, etc, etc. but also call shame to the mainstream media when they let these idiots spew their insane justifications WITHOUT challenging their premises – perhaps asking them what entity provided the highways that allowed them to drive their pick-ups from their double-wides to Oregon – MUCH LESS call them out for the insurrectionists that they are – I know this is a vain proposal – suggesting the media to ask the Trumps, et. al. to defend their insanity but one can hope
sluggo says:
Do you think the government will take requests for the siege music?
How about NWA's "Fuck the Police"? Ironic enough?
Free form avante gard jazz?
Dr Demento?
Vogon poetry?
Klezmer music?
doug says:
I am down with the Vogon poetry. fair punishment.
Either that or the BeeGees….
Yet Another Nate says:
A recent New York Times article about these guys noted that they're having trouble starting fires to keep warm because the sagebrush they're using for "firewood" is covered in snow. Which, obviously. It's winter and it's the fucking desert.
They're also asking for snacks, if their contact on the outside is to be believed. So they rolled up to a nature center in the middle of nowhere at the beginning of winter with guns, but no firewood or food.
Seriously, this is amateur hour. They *wish* they were terrorists. It's survivalist theater.
Turn off the toilets. They'll be surrendering to authorities by the end of next week.
Bill says:
Speaking of the Bee Gees:
Well, you can tell by the way I hold my Glock,
I'm a man's man, no time to talk.
Fox News loud and muzzles warm, nobody tread on me
Since I was born.
We're all white, it's OK.
The Feebs look the other way.
Libtards only understand
The New York Times and the Koran.
The new wrecking crew says:
Why can't they just have soldiers build an 8 foot razor wired fence around them and starve them out? No food, or water passes through the perimeter. Anyone wanting to leave can do so, unarmed. They would immediately be arrested for trespassing, or whatever. Just wait as long as it takes for them to either die of starvation, or surrender peacefully. No confrontation needed. I don't understand why this doesn't occur the them.
robert e says:
At times like this I almost envy twitter users (or whatever they call themselves). http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/yall-qaeda-vanilla-isis-twitter
My personal fav is "#YokelHaram"
Skipper says:
Last time I checked, taking up arms against the government was considered treason.
J. Dryden says:
I think the logic of the white/black thing is pretty simple: The federal agents (whoever they are in this instance–FBI? BLM? ATF?) are subject to the oversight of elected officials (or officials who are appointed by elected officials.)
Should things go pear-shaped (if I may be so cavalier about the deaths of several-to-many people), these agents will be taken before these officials and made to account for what they did.
I invite all of us to imagine the committee of these officials, and I submit that it would look very much like just about any Congressional committee. That is, lily white, and stocked to the rafters with people who are aching to trot off to the lobby where the cable news cameras are waiting.
Now, given that scenario, and given that the agents in question most likely have an eye on their current employment and eventual pensions, ask yourself:
Given the current level of public opinion in this country, what will that committee do to them if they shoot up a bunch of White People Claiming To Be Patriots?
They'll shitcan the agents so fast that the pinks slips will still be hot from the printer.
But if the "bunch" in question is black? The committee will bend over backwards to make it the fault of the dead.
My point is this: My sympathies are with the agents. Because I'll bet you anything they would love–LOVE–to hand these involuntary-giggle-when-I-use-the-word-militiamen their asses. Just as they would have loved to blow a Constitution-sized hole in Cliven Bundy's treasonous hide, as they could easily have done.
But they just don't want to get fired.
cromartie says:
I'm more than happy to see them bombed into oblivion. No need to risk the lives of guardsmen or soldiers when it can be taken care of from the air.
Then again, just cut off the water and power, barricade them in and wait them out.
Even the people they're there "supporting" want no part of them and will report to prison today, as I understand it.
Mo says:
cromartie – let's just go with smoke and stinkbombs rather than something that might destroy the nice little park building.
Yet Another Nate says:
@Mo – Word. It's a really nice recently renovated CCC era building. It'd be a shame if anything happened to it.
MS says:
An armed rebellion against the federal government? I'd be happy to see them treated the same way as a black kid playing in the park. Which is to say, killed without any request to surrender.
Nate says:
@nonynony my thoughts exactly! Well said. :)
@Other Nates: Holy cow! How many of us are there?!?! I think I might be the OG, I've been posting here since 2005ish? I thought there was only one other. Now there are 3? :D
The new wrecking crew says:
Most likely there is no outside water to the buildings, probably a well. If the pump is electric, that's easy to shut off. If the well is outside the building, regardless of the source of pressure, that's easy to shut off. Problem solved in about a week either by severe dehydration, starvation, or cannibalism. Either way, for the country that's a win-win-win.
These clowns actually seized these building and didn't even have the brains to pack a fucking lunch. That explains their 3rd grade understanding of the constitution, and general principles of democracy.
My grandfather worked in the CCC in CA, OR, and WA. I wonder if he worked on these buildings.
If this is the face of American conservatism, then why are we so fucking afraid of upsetting them? Fuck them to hell.
Philippa says:
@Bill – outstanding work in the field of Repurposed Disco with Improved Lyrics. Truly excellent.
But now I've got "Stayin' Alive" stuck in my head, so thanks for that.
mrearl says:
While they must have forgotten the Vieenies, since they did ask for "snacks," they claim to have brought food and water to stay a while, so it might not be a short siege.
fasteddie says:
and people dare to say that "White privilege" is not a thing.
The new wrecking crew says:
Doesn't matter how much food they brought. Since a fence and a few platoons of soldiers on a continuously rotating guard can maintain the perimeter pretty much forever. Starve their dumb asses out. I don't understand why law enforcement is unsure of what to do.
Wim says:
I think that between them Tim H. and J. Dryden have entirely explained why there's not a violent Federal response to this situation, or at least, not until or unless the occupiers escalate. It's not merely a question of race: poor white trash get shot, too. It's a matter or race *and* class. Sneering about 'hillbillies' running out of their 'doublewides' is simply wrong about who these people are, and why they have such apparently-justified feelings of entitlement.
Interrobang says:
Remember, the actual literal meaning of "privilege" is "separate law." It's right there in the roots, as in "privi" like "private," and "lege," as in "legal." Something to think about.
Yet Another Nate says:
@Nate – re:Nates
I used to post as Nate, then at some point I noted you were he more regular poster so I kicked it to "Another Nate". Then, like a month ago, I noticed someone else was using that handle so I changed again. I figure it's enough just to try to stay consistent in one thread.
Why are there so many Nates?!?!
Gil More says:
NPR non stop, except for Car Talk with the Tappet Brothers. They might enjoy Click and Clack.
ZeroInMyOnes says:
Rough day today but this post and comment stream is really helping. Really. Thanks!
wetcasements says:
#YallQaeda
At least something good has already come from this cracker welfare queen insurrection.
Jack the Cold Warrior says:
As feel good as the ideas of bombing them or nuking them from orbit [great one, Major Kong! ] , as a ground pounder, I've got a better idea, PR wise…
Have the Arctic Brigade at Fort Richardson, AK, and. or the 10th Mountain Division send a battalion each of their best cold weather fighters to fracking Stalingrad the Ya'llQaeda. Set a perimeter, nothing goes in, only surrendering white honkie assholes come out. It gets down to -7 F there in winter, and most of them evidently don't know what they are in for.
Charge them with treason, try them, lock them up. Also require them to attend real classes on the Constitution and US History.
BTW, the real original owners of that land are the Piaute Indians.
Katydid says:
Very disappointed in PBS Newshour–I count on that for actual news (not news-ertainment). They had an interview last night with a Y'allqaidist who blathered on and on about "savin' ranchin' fer the younger generations!" and "Murikkkuh!" and there was no dissent from the interviewer. This has nothing to do with the arsonist Hammond family.
H.M.S. Blankenship says:
I don't think anyone has mentioned my favorite: Vanilla ISIS.
GunstarGreen says:
They have assaulted and seized a United States Government installation with weapons and force, and declared their intent to oppose the lawfully-elected government of this nation.
They are enemy combatants. Treat them as such. Shoot every single one of them, then dump the bodies in a ditch.
We're so concerned about being "tough on terror" these days. Well boys and girls, here's your chance to be "tough on terror". Kill those terrorist pieces of shit and show them that you do not fuck with the United States of America.
doug says:
Calm down folks. There is no need for violent retribution here. Convict of Felony Federal tresspass. No more gun ownership for felons. That would be enough to discourage such .
After they are run out with Bill's Bee Gee's lyrics 24X7 of course…
Mayya says:
You know what, Katydid, I'm as left of center as shit, but I'm so done with NPR. their reporting has gone to crap in the past year or two, to the point where it's irresponsible, not just bad journalism.
Anon says:
I say the Feds deal with this the old-school way:
Build a wall around the nature center.
But first, send in a small barrel of amontillado.
Then go home.
I fully realize that these gun-wielding morons wouldn't get the reference.
That's what would make it so perfect.
Michael says:
Oh, white people.
drouse says:
@robert e
"#YokelHaram" Wow, it's just so apt. Talk about a whiter shade of pale.
Heisenberg says:
"If there's a question to ask on this score, it's not 'why don't they use violence,' it's 'why aren't they more cautious with unarmed suspects and common criminals?' If we're outraged, it shouldn’t be because law enforcement isn't rushing to violently confront Bundy and his group. We should be outraged because that restraint isn't extended to all Americans."
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/01/the_oregon_standoff_with_ammon_bundy_isn_t_evidence_of_a_racial_double_standard.html
swkellogg says:
"Why are there so many Nates?!?!"
Because everyone has them?
Jesse says:
To play the devil's advocate here: unlike many other groups, a bunch of privileged old white guys are easy enough to "smoke out" without violence. Just cut the power for a couple days so they can't read Infowars or watch Fox News, block the road so people can't bring their fat asses food, and see how long it takes them to get back on their four wheelers and ride off back to their suburban homes.
Jack the Cold Warrior says:
Latest- Forest Service plans to cut the electricity. Y'all Qaeda's supply room is almost bare, but they DID bring free weights. And what looks like a big bag of dog food, which they will be eating ( and later, the dog). But they'll probably cave in before then…
democommie says:
Is feature or bug that of 53 comments only 3 were showing?
Nate says:
@democommie I don't know, when I last posted a few days ago there were like 23 comments.
Skipper says:
@ democommie — blame Obama
JDM says:
Interesting that the "Broken Windows" philosophy only applies to brown people.
democommie says:
The irony is this. I come back, just now, and there is a total of eight comments, including this one. Is fucked.
Jado says:
You're forgetting one very important thing – white people are CRAZY!!
They will totally shoot at police or FBI who dare to interfere with them in any way, and we DON'T want another Waco, because Waco was in 1993 and we STILL talk about it. Because CRAZY WHITE PEOPLE WITH GUNS still talk about it like it happened yesterday. And the CRAZY WHITE PEOPLE WITH GUNS are willing and able to SHOOT anyone who disagrees with them about how Waco was a government overreach and the jack-booted thugs of the ATF are all criminal fascists dedicated to disarming the American Patriot in order to usher in the New World Order, and sell loyal American's precious bodily fluids to communist nazi terrorists from Libya and the West Bank.
We aren't dealing with dogs and toddlers – we are dealing with meth addicts crossed with PCP freaks, and we are trying to de-escalate the situation before one of them yells about being Thor and tries to destroy someone with a hammer and then all of the guns start firing and the screaming starts and someone sets a concrete block structure on fire, which shouldn't even be possible, but these idiots will find a way and the incident will live forever in Rightwing Whackadoo land as the time the government used Napalm on loyal patriots.